Dr. Pho, of KevinMD, talks about his path and medicine today

Session 118

The Premed Years

Today's special guest is Dr. Kevin Pho, the genius behind KevinMD.com, an awesome, collaborative blog site that allows physicians, residents, medical students, premed students, patients, and just about anybody involved in the healthcare world can share their voice and talk about their struggles and opinions. It's indeed an awesome site that provides a GREAT deal of information.

If you've listened to us before, some of the articles we've tackled were actually found on KevinMD.com. In last week's episode, we featured Dr. Tom Peteet who has written some articles on KevinMD. I, too, have written some articles on KevinMD.

In episode 112, Ryan and Allison talked about an article on KevinMD called There Was a Time When Doctors Were Doctors, written by a physician who was venting over what life is like as a physician (where Allison and Ryan had numerous counterpoints to).

Today, Kevin talks about why and how he started his blog KEvinMD.com, about today's health care and why students are eager to get into medical school (despite all these complaints from physicians), how the Affordable Care Act has changed his practice and what premeds need to know about it.

Here are the highlights of the conversation with :

His Aha! moment when he realized he wanted to be a doctor

  • Wanted to be a doctor back in high school
  • The cliche of making a difference in people's lives
  • Getting the influence from his mom who was a medical technologist
  • Thinking that a career in medicine is the best way to impact people's lives
  • High school in Canada
  • Undergrad and medical school in Boston University

Residency at Boston University and completed Internal Medicine

Now an internal medicine physician, working in group practice with 3 other physicians and a hospital-owned practice

Taking a combined program at Boston University:

  • A 7-year program which is a great option for people who already know they want to go to medical school
  • Worked with 40-50 people with similar interests and getting support from your peers

Dealing with physician burnout:

  • KevinMD.com talks about physician burnout all the time
  • A taboo topic within the halls of medicine

Are the new work hour restrictions good or bad for medicine?

  • Multiple studies showing that limiting work hours doesn't necessarily improve patient care or reduce medical errors
  • A pretty rough transition but there has to be balance between reduced time spent in a hospital and and being well-prepared when you graduate

A record number of students applying for medical school every year: What drives them?

  • It's a rewarding career
  • The bond you form with patients which is a bond you hardly get with other professions
  • High job security
  • Wanting to make a difference in the society

If you go to medicine purely for the money:

  • You will be disappointed. There are much better ways to make money than medicine.
  • You have to go to medical school for the RIGHT reasons.

A typical day in the life of Kevin as an internal medicine physician:

  • 4:30 am – 7am: Wakes up early, reading and editing articles submitted to him and posted on his site
  • 8am – 12pm / 1pm – 5pm – Clinic sessions
  • Sees about 15-20 patients a day at a primary care office
  • 6 pm: Arrives home and spends time with his family and does social media afterwards until he goes to bed

Having interest outside medicine:

  • In his case, social media invigorates what he does
  • You have to have some type of interest outside of healthcare to keep yourself going.

On Obamacare/Affordable Care Act:

  • Highly politicized
  • It makes health insurance more affordable and more accessible to those who don't have it
  • It expands Medicaid – more Medicaid patients
  • Challenges coming up going forward but as a whole, it's a pretty moderate reform to the country's health insurance system

Dealing with Social Media:

  • You can't avoid Social Media
  • As Dr. Vartabedian said, this is the “first generation of digital natives”
  • Premed and medical students have grown up on social media
  • Health care is always 5-10 years behind any other industry when it comes to technology including social media
  • Some hospitals and doctors still view social media from a perspective of risk
  • Use social media to make your voice heard because it is an equalizing factor. And use the platform wisely.
  • Learn about how medicine is run.
  • Sharpen your voice so you will be heard when you see all the things that could be improved in health care today.

The power of social media:

  • Kevin seeks to present social media from a more positive light.
  • It gives physicians a VOICE amidst the rapidly changing health system.
  • It has influence and it drives CHANGE.

His rule of thumb for writing articles: The Elevator Test

Don't post anything that you wouldn't say aloud in a crowd of hospital elevator

What he wish he knew as a premed/med student:

  • The importance of having a voice
  • Learning more about the business of medicine: behind-the-scenes, healthcare policy, etc.

Submitting articles on KevinMD and getting your voice out:

  • Syndicated posts on Twitter and Facebook
  • To share stories of those who intercept with their health care system but aren't often heard from
  • To share the voice of practicing clinicians who are not professional writers or don't appear on television but are everyday doctors but have powerful stories they need to share.
  • To share stories that show the human side of medicine
  • To talk about difficult issues (behavioral health, physician burnout and suicide, and other topics that don't get a lot of attention from mainstream media publications)

What drives Kevin to do what he does everyday:

  • “If I don't do it, who will?”
  • Having health insurance is not the same as having access to a doctor.
  • The shortage of primary care physicians in Massachusetts
  • Knowing that a lot of patients won't necessarily have a primary care doctor if he weren't there for them.

Essential resources for premed/medical students:

  • Leverage your online tools into your professional lives.
  • Dr. Vartabedian's book: The Public Physician

Some pieces of advice for premed students:

  • Medicine can be consuming so have that balance and set boundaries to avoid burnout.
  • Know where to find the answer; otherwise, don't be afraid of saying “I don't know.”

 

Links and Other Resources

 Transcript

Dr. Ryan Gray: The Premed Years, Session Number 118.

Hello and welcome to the Medical School Headquarters Podcast; where we believe that collaboration, not competition, is key to your premed success. I'm your host, Dr. Ryan Gray and in this podcast we share with you stories, encouragement and information that you need to know to help guide you on your path to becoming a physician.

This week's podcast guest is a special one. We have Kevin Pho who runs www.KevinMD.com. Now if you're a premed student and you don't know about www.KevinMD.com, go check it out. It's at www.KevinMD.com. It's an awesome website- a blog really, a collaborative blog that allows physicians, residents, medical students, premed students, even patients and their healthcare- anybody involved in the healthcare world have a voice and talk about what they're struggling with, talk about what they like, what they don't like, and their opinions. And it's an awesome site that offers a ton of great information and you've listened to us, most likely you've heard some of our podcasts before, you've listened to us talk about some of the articles that we have found on www.KevinMD.com. Last week's guest we had Tom Peteet, who's a physician- a resident, and he's written several articles on KevinMD. I myself have written several articles on KevinMD. And there was one episode specifically, in episode 112 most recently, titled, ‘If Doctors Can't be Doctors, Why Bother Being Premed?' And that episode came from an article on KevinMD that was titled, ‘There was a Time when Doctors were Doctors.' And it was a physician that was venting over what life is like as a physician now and Allison and I kind of had a lot of counter points to his points. And so if you've listened to that and you like that, then go check out KevinMD because there's so many awesome articles- good and bad about healthcare and so there's a ton of great stuff.

But today, I have Kevin on with us. And he's going to talk about his path into medicine, talk about why he started his blog www.KevinMD.com. He's going to talk about healthcare nowadays and why premed students are still so eager to get into medical school, and even with all these physicians complaining about medicine, why we're still breaking records every year with applications to medical school. How the Affordable Care Act has changed the way he's practiced and to what you should know as a premed moving forward about the ACA or ObamaCare when you go for your interviews. So we have a ton of great information, I want to get right to it.

Kevin, welcome to the show, thank you for joining us.

Dr. Kevin Pho: Thanks for having me, it's a pleasure.

My ‘Ah-Ha’ Moment

Dr. Ryan Gray: So I want to start- you've been practicing as a physician now for awhile. I want you to rewind your brain as much as you can and go back to when you first realized you wanted to be a doctor.

Dr. Kevin Pho: Sure. I think I wanted to become a doctor in high school and people always ask me why I wanted to become a doctor; and it's hard to give an answer that isn't a cliché. My cliché is that I wanted to make a difference in people's lives and really for me, that meant going into medicine. My mother was a medical technologist, she worked in a hospital, so I had that type of influence in terms of her talking about her life in the hospital. And I thought that a career in medicine would be really the best way to make that impact in people's lives. And I went to high school in Toronto and eventually went to undergraduate and medical studies in Boston. I went to Boston University for both and I stayed at BU for my residency which I completed Internal Medicine and now I'm in Nashua, New Hampshire just about 45 minutes north of Boston.

Dr. Ryan Gray: And you're working as a- what kind of physician are you now?

Dr. Kevin Pho: I'm an Internal Medicine physician. I work in a group practice with three other physicians in a hospital-owned practice.

Dr. Ryan Gray: Okay, very interesting. Now it's interesting- you said you first realized around high school that you wanted to be a physician. I had just come across some of the matriculating student questionnaire data from the AAMC, and the majority of matriculating medical students realize in high school that that's what they want to do. So it's almost 31% of matriculating students- it's high school where they find out.

Dr. Kevin Pho: Oh that's interesting.

Dr. Ryan Gray: Yeah, I thought it'd be later.

Dr. Kevin Pho: You know I think that for some they know very early and at Boston University I went to a seven year program which as you know combines both undergraduate and medical studies. So I think if you're going to a program like that you have to know pretty early on what you want to do.

Boston University’s Combined Program

Dr. Ryan Gray: Now it's interesting- so talk about that. How did you find out about that program, and what was it like going into a combined program?

Dr. Kevin Pho: I found out about the program because one of the alumnus from my high school also went into the BU seven year program and I thought it was for people who knew what they wanted to do, I thought it was a great option because assuming that you maintain a minimum academic standard you could go straight into medical school without having to reapply after undergraduate studies. So I wanted to take that surefire approach and I went into that program and I met about 40 to 50 people with similar interests, and I thought it was a great way to complete medical studies. Because right from the very beginning you have that type of support from your peers because whatever you're going through, they're going through the same thing and progressing through the seven years with that peer group I thought was tremendously helpful along the journey.

Dr. Ryan Gray: One of the hot topics it seems these days with medicine is physician burnout. And for somebody like yourself who goes undergrad and medical school in an accelerated program and really have gone nonstop; do you think that's good for burnout, or do you think- looking back would you have changed anything?

Physician Burnout

Dr. Kevin Pho: It's an interesting question. On my blog we talk about physician burnout all the time, and a lot of the advice that I read that physicians give on my own site is not necessarily something that I followed when I was in training. I think physician burnout is somewhat of a taboo topic. I think that especially within the halls of medicine, if you admit to any type of burnout or the work is too hard, or the desire for work life balance- I think there's still a perception that you're perceived as weak. I think the tide is slowly changing but when I was going through the accelerated program, which was back in the '90s, it wasn't that long ago, there certainly wasn't any- I should say there wasn't that much support from a behavioral health standpoint, from a burnout standpoint. I think now, I think it's more recognized. I think that there have been articles in mainstream media publications as well as social media about physician burnout and medical school burnout for that matter, and I think just bringing it out in the open and talking about it openly is a huge step forward from when I went to medical school.

Dr. Ryan Gray: Yeah. Now I'm interested for you to take a line, whether or not you think the new work hour restrictions are good or bad for medicine.

Work Hour Restrictions

Dr. Kevin Pho: You know, that's also a huge topic as well. I think the concept makes sense. I think you don't want doctors who are training 30-40 hours straight and taking care of patients, I think there's some danger in that. But as you know there are multiple studies showing that limiting work hours doesn't improve patient care or doesn't necessarily reduce medical errors. You have increased chance of errors during handoffs, you have a shift mentality approach, and for technical specialties like surgery, I think it cuts down on their technical training because they think the only way to get better as a surgeon is to do more cases and if you're limited by the work hours, I think we're training a generation of surgeons who may not be as well trained as their previous generation. So I think that work hours in general is going through a pretty rough transition. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think there has to be a balance between the reduction of time that you spend at a hospital and being well prepared when you graduate.

Driving Factors of Becoming Physicians

Dr. Ryan Gray: Yeah, I like that. So there are record numbers of students applying to medical school every year. Amid all of these changes in healthcare and insurance and everything else; what do you think it is that still drives people to want to be physicians?

Dr. Kevin Pho: I think the short answer is it's a rewarding career. I think when it comes down to it, that bond that you form with patients, I think is a bond that you get in very few other professions. I think that it's definitely going to be secure in terms of job security in the future, as Baby Boomers age they're going to need more healthcare; I don't think that there's ever going to be a time where there's going to be too many providers, if anything there's always going to be too few, especially in the primary care specialties. But if I was to say one thing, it's that the students who want to go into medicine generally want to make a difference in society and they go into it for a similar reason as I did; is that they really- to make that individual difference. If you take that healthcare approach there's really no more powerful way.

Dr. Ryan Gray: What about the students out there that might have what you or I would think would be the wrong aspirations in wanting to be a cardiologist because they make $300,000 a year. Have you seen examples of physicians that don't do well in that sense?

Dr. Kevin Pho: Sure, I think that if you go into medicine for purely for the money, I think those people would be sorely disappointed. There are much better ways to make money out there than medicine. As you know medical school debt is a huge issue, especially in this country, people are graduating in excess of $150,000 – $200,000 in debt and really no amount of salary is going to completely overcome that in the very beginning. And there's so many issues and difficulties and obstacles when we practice medicine, so I think that if you don't go into it for the right reasons, if you're going into it purely for social status and money, I think that you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

A Day in the Life

Dr. Ryan Gray: I like it. What- you had mentioned some of the wrong reasons about going into medicine and you'll be sorely disappointed. Let's talk about your day as an Internal Medicine physician. And somebody who is being driven by money, and is now in your shoes. What does a typical day look like for you?

Dr. Kevin Pho: So I'm not a typical Internal Medicine physician. As you know I have a pretty broad social media profile, and I do spend a lot of time with social media. So I wake up pretty early in the morning, about 4:30 – 5:00 in the morning, and I spend a few hours reading articles and editing articles that get submitted to me so that gets posted up on my site. And I do that until 6:00 – 7:00 where I go to the clinic and get ready for the day that starts at 8:00. And there's two four-hour sessions, one from 8:00 – 12:00 and one from 1:00 – 5:00. I see about fifteen to twenty patients a day, I get a primary care office so there are a lot of well physicals, diabetes, hypertension, hyperlipidemia, depression, anxiety; pretty much the bread and butter primary care tops that I see. And I get home around 5:00 and 6:00, I have a family- two young daughters that I spend time with until they sleep and then afterwards I do more social media. I could preparing talks on social media, I could be doing writing, writing for my own site, writing for newspapers; and I do that until I go to bed. So I think that I do have a certain blend of healthcare and social media that I- I'm not going to say that everyone should do, but it does invigorate me because I think that there are times that I feel that if I just did primary care, it can take a toll and I think that having interests outside of medicine, as I do with social media, invigorates what I do and I think it's tremendously important for anyone who wants to go into medicine. That they have to have some type of interest outside of healthcare to keep themselves going.

Affordable Care Act

Dr. Ryan Gray: Yeah, you need that balance definitely. What- as a primary care physician, another hot topic these days is ObamaCare or the Affordability Care Act. How has that affected you in any way, and as a premed student who may be listening to this, what should they be thinking about as they move forward?

Dr. Kevin Pho: So I think the Affordable Care Act, or ObamaCare- I think it's highly politicized of course. But really it's a moderate approach to healthcare. It really entrenches a status quo; in fact it makes the healthcare, health insurers, more powerful rather than less. So I think that its effects are largely overblown. Now that being said there certainly are some differences. It does make health insurance more affordable, more accessible to those who don't have it. It expands Medicaid; so from a practical standpoint in my clinic, I see more patients who ordinarily wouldn't have come if they didn't have health insurance. I see a few more Medicaid patients, and the hospital I work for is generally getting reimbursed more frequently by people who otherwise would have been uninsured. So that's really the big extent to it. I think that going forward, there are several Supreme Court challenges to the Affordable Care Act coming up, so we'll see whether it's intact. But on the whole I find that it's a pretty moderate reform to our health insurance system and I think certainly much bigger changes could have been done.

Dr. Ryan Gray: Okay so small changes, small pivots, and as usual maybe the media making bigger light of it.

Dr. Kevin Pho: That's right. That's right, as with anything to do with our President.

Dr. Ryan Gray: And Ebola, right? Ebola.

Dr. Kevin Pho: Absolutely.

Dr. Ryan Gray: You had started talking about some social media with what you do on a day- in a day basis. And a couple of weeks ago I had Dr. Vartabedian on talking about social media for physicians. As a premed student, a medical student, now even a resident or other physicians- can we avoid social media at this point, and how should embrace it if we need to?

Social Media Aspect

Dr. Kevin Pho: So the answer is no, you can't avoid social media. Especially this generation of premedical and medical students, I'm sure Dr. Vartabedian has said this is the first generation of so-called Digital Natives. Everyone who is in medical school and doing premed courses now, they've grown up on social media. They may have started off with MySpace, graduated to Facebook, and now they're on SnapChat. And I think social media is as much a part of their lives as the telephone was with mine; so social media is ingrained. So I think that the question is do you have to make the transition from everyday use of social media to using social media in a professional health setting. And for some, that's going to be a huge transition because healthcare, from what I find, is always five to ten years behind any other industry when it comes to any technology. And when it comes to social media it's no exception and I think a lot of hospitals and a lot of doctors still view it from a perspective of risk. They view social media as a way that they can get into trouble. So one of the things that I try to do whenever I give talks and talk to other physicians and talk to hospitals is to present social media from a more positive light. I share my story and tell them how it's affected me, I share some of the opportunities that social media has given me, and some of the opportunities I had no idea I could have had when I was in medical school. One I want to zero in particular is that social media gives physicians a voice, and I think it's tremendously important for doctors to have that voice because our health system is changing so rapidly as we speak, and there are just too few times where doctors have that voice where they can drive that change. So I say to medical students and premedical students, is that use social media to make your voice heard because it's really one of the equalizing factors and people- these platforms that we're given, whether it's a blog, whether it's on Facebook and Twitter, they just weren't available when I was training. So use that platform wisely, don't do anything that you wouldn't do in a professional setting, and if you use it well you can get your voice to be heard and really have some influence and drive some change because it's going to matter when you become a doctor.

Dr. Ryan Gray: Don't post anything you wouldn't want your grandmother to read; that's what I've always heard and lived by.

Dr. Kevin Pho: There are a lot of variations of that. I have what's called an elevator test; don't post anything that you wouldn't say aloud in a crowded hospital elevator. So I think that's really a great rule of thumb.

If I Knew Then…

Dr. Ryan Gray: That's awesome. What are some things- again looking back on your journey, that knowing now you would have wished you knew as a premed student, as a medical student?

Dr. Kevin Pho: Well, let me think about that. Let me see. I think one thing I wanted to do is that I think it goes back to what I was saying before. I didn't have a voice back then and I didn't realize how important that could be. Because in medical school you would just be focused on clinical studies, on your premed courses, and I think it's important to develop a voice and learn more about the business of medicine. Because too often, medicine is being taken over by non-physicians and non-healthcare professionals. You have people with MBAs driving healthcare decisions in hospitals. And because doctors aren't versed sometimes with the business of medicine, it's hard for them to have that influence. So one of the things that I wish I would have done back when I was a medical student is learn more about the behind-the-scenes, about the healthcare policy, about the business of medicine, and make sure I develop that voice earlier than I did. Now I think I've made up for that, I think I've utilized the various social media platforms before a lot of other doctors did and I've learned a tremendous amount about healthcare policy and about the business of medicine and I read hundreds of stories from doctors and these are things that you can't learn in an educational setting. They don't teach these stories in residency or in medical school. And I think now with social media it makes these stories so much more accessible. So my advice again, to these premedical and medical students, would be to learn about how medicine is run and sharpen your voice so you could be heard when you see all the things that could be improved in healthcare today.

www.KevinMD.com

Dr. Ryan Gray: It's interesting, you'd mentioned really you wish you would have had a voice or found your voice earlier. Now you're doing that with KevinMD- your blog, your website. You've found a voice there but you're also giving the opportunity for others to have a voice. And so for the students that you're talking about just now, they have the opportunity to go to KevinMD and submit their own articles to you. How do you get those articles and what type of submissions are you looking for, if anything?

Dr. Kevin Pho: Sure, so I've built a platform over the past ten years so I not only have my blog but also I syndicate posts on Twitter and Facebook and it gets a lot of traction there. And one of the goals that I have on my site is to share the stories of those who intersect with our healthcare system, but aren't often heard from. So what that means, these aren't the voices that you read in the New York Times, these aren't doctors in name only who write op-eds in national newspapers. But I really aim to share the voice of the practicing clinician; people who may not have published books. People who aren't professional writers or appear on television. These are everyday doctors who may not be the greatest writers, but still have powerful stories that they need to share. So that's really my primary driving goal, is to get these voices out because a lot of these doctors and nurses and other healthcare professionals; they're the ones who form the backbone of our healthcare system. And it's important that their voices be elevated to the level of doctors who may not practice but often appear on a New York Times op-ed page. So that's really one of my driving goals, and for medical students I have a lot of medical students who contribute to my site too because they share a lot of stories about what happens in medical school, and there are a lot of ways that we can improve our medical education system. I also like stories that show the human side of medicine because it's not too often that patients see that human side of doctors, and I think that having a site like mine, having a platform, allows healthcare professionals to share the human side. Talk about issues that are difficult to talk about like behavioral health issues, physician burnout, physician suicide because these are topics that don't get a lot of attention in mainstream media publications. So it's been pretty successful, I do get a lot of other mainstream media entities who read my site and sometimes some of my authors get opportunities in these publications from editors who read my site. So it's been tremendously gratifying and I'm definitely thankful for everyone who contributes to my site and hopefully I can do my part in elevating their voices and making their voices heard.

Dr. Ryan Gray: Well I've contributed a couple articles to the site, but I also use it as a source of interesting topics for the podcast itself and I've done that a couple times with some interesting articles that have been published.

Dr. Kevin Pho: Okay, thank you very much for reading the site. I think one of the things I try to do as I mention, is to really share topics that don't often get discussed so I look for things that are a little bit unconventional and sometimes a fresh take on a topic that you just won't read anywhere else. And I'm so thankful to my contributors who really share that perspective.

My Motivation

Dr. Ryan Gray: As a physician now who's been out in practice, what continues to drive you and motivate you day in and day out as you see your fifteen to twenty patients a day?

Dr. Kevin Pho: I think with the shortage of primary care doctors, if I don't do it, who will? I think that's really what motivates me if I wasn't in primary care I think a lot of these patients, especially these newly insured patients, will have a hard time finding someone who will take care of them. I've always said that having health insurance is not necessarily the same as having access to a doctor because what good is having that insurance if you can't see anyone? And as we know we have a pretty stark primary care shortage in Massachusetts. The wait times can be anywhere from 60 to 90 days and I've had a lot of new patients come to me saying that I'm one of the few doctors who are accepting new patients in a relatively timely basis. So I think that's what drives me. I think knowing that a lot of these patients won't necessarily have a primary care doctor if I weren't their primary care doctor; I think that's a pretty strong motivator.

Additional Sources

Dr. Ryan Gray: Okay. Do you have any essential reading items for students on their journey? Besides your blog of course.

Dr. Kevin Pho: Oh, thank you. No I think a lot of my focus is going to be on using social media, using these digital tools to help their online reputation because I think it's tremendously important. A lot of students don't necessarily know how to leverage their online influence or these online tools into their professional lives. I actually think Dr. Vartabedian's book, ‘The Public Physician' is certainly an essential read. And I would just start with his book and get ideas on how to leverage your voice into today's digital media.

Dr. Ryan Gray: Okay. And you also have your own book about establishing, managing and protecting your online reputation. So I would add that one to the list.

Dr. Kevin Pho: Oh, thank you very much, I appreciate it.

Dr. Ryan Gray: Alright Dr. Pho, as we head out what last pieces of advice would you have for a premed student who's looking at this four years of undergrad and four years of med school, and at least three years of residency, they're looking all the way down that road and they're struggling on their journey. What can you tell them to keep them motivated?

Dr. Pho’s Advice to Students

Dr. Kevin Pho: Well I think two things. I touched upon earlier, you want to have that balance. Know that medicine can be consuming, there's always more patients to see, there's always more paperwork to do. I think you have to set boundaries because if you don't and put 100% of your life in medicine, it could easily consume you and that can lead to burnout. And burned out physicians are definitely no good to anybody, let alone patients. So that's my first piece of advice. My second piece of advice is don't be afraid of saying, ‘I don't know.' I think medicine attracts the best of the best and sometimes people who do well in high school and undergraduate studies find themselves in situations in medical school and beyond that they simply don't know the answer and I think it takes a strong person to admit that they don't know, sometimes to their superiors. But it's also just as important that they also try to find out that information. There's just too much to know in medicine and healthcare, and the amount that we have to know is growing exponentially. So know where to find that information and if you don't know the answer, don't be afraid of saying, ‘I don't know.'

Closing Remarks

Dr. Ryan Gray: Alright, again that was Kevin Pho from www.KevinMD.com. Go check out the blog. If you're interested in writing something there is an easy way to contribute to that site. If you go to the top of the page it says, ‘Contribute' right there, very easy and Kevin himself reads through them all and edits them and posts them, it's awesome. So go check it out, www.KevinMD.com, check out his book that we talked about- or I talked about I guess; ‘Establishing, Managing and Protecting your Online Reputation.' A book specifically for physicians and medical practices. It's never too early to start working on your social media presence, your online presence as a whole. So go check out that book and the other book that we talked about, Dr. Vartabedian's book. I had Dr. Vartabedian on awhile ago as well so you can go check out that podcast if you liked it.

So again, I hope you got a ton of great information out of today's podcast; it was great talking to Kevin Pho, somebody that's been practicing for a while who is in touch with a lot of different aspects of healthcare, the social media side, the online side, and what he still does day in and day out with patients. So if you got a ton of great information today and you want to leave us a rating and review go to www.MedicalSchoolHQ.net/iTunes and you can do that there.

If you've already done it, thank you very much. If you're planning on doing it in the future, thank you very much. And if not, that's okay we still love you anyway. I hope you join us next time here at the Medical School Headquarters podcast.

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